Tuesday, June 27, 2017

... Jonah and Noah, Allegory and History and Archaeology

How did Jonah in the Bible live in the belly of the Whale for 3 days without getting digested in the Whale's stomach?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
studied at Lund University
Answered just now
We are not told in Jonah that the fish was a whale, but it is the only fish large enough (not fish in modern Linnean, but in traditional terminology) large enough to swallow a man into his belly without his being munched to pieces first.

In the New Testament I think it is either Jesus or Paul who directly says it was a whale, which either had from oral (paratextual) tradition.

We are also not told he survived in the belly Gepetto-wise, as in Pinocchio. Since Jonah was an allegoric prefiguring of Christ, it is also possible he died and miraculously resurrected.

His being in the belly three days and nights would have been known not from his own reckoning of time, but from weekday when he was rescued and either his recalling weekday of storm or people on shore doing so.

The question I find intriguing is, if the voyage was in the Mediterranean (I think he was trying to get to Tharshish, in Spain, I haven’t looked it up right now), what was a whale doing there? Were they more common then than now there?

What is the allegory about Jonah and the whale, in the Christian Bible?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Answered 1h ago
Literally Jonah was three days and nights in the belly of a whale and then was released because the whale found him no doubt somewhat indigestible.

Allegorically this signifies Jesus being inside Earth, His soul down in Sheol and most of the time his body in the grave too during three consecutive calendar nychthemera.

If Genesis is an allegory, as believed by many Christians, then why is the entire Bible not an allegory?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
studied at Lund University
Answered 54m ago
The entire Bible is allegory.

Nevertheless, next to nothing (in terms of percent out of the total textmass*) in the Bible is AN allegory as literary form.

You have prophets using allegories (the literary form) to criticise the behaviours of King David against Urias the Hittite and of Ahab against Naboth. You have one pharao in the time of Joseph (possibly Djoser) and one Nebuchadnezzar in the time of Daniel dreaming and Joseph and Daniel treating their dreams as allegories (three of them, Nebuchadnezzar had two dreams, I think).

You also have visions in Daniel and Apocalypse some of which may be allegoric.

All of the private life of the prophet Hosea is an allegory about God’s relation to Israel. Its end is an allegory about the conversion of the Jews.

Genesis as a whole is allegory in the sense that the literal sense carries an allegoric sense, but not AN allegory as literary form, it is the literary form of straightforward history (most of Genesis 1 would be vision, since Adam and Eve were not yet around witnessing it : Genesis has 50 chapters).

You find allegories about Jesus all through it.

  • Eve created out of the opened side of Adam while he was sleeping (Genesis 2) = allegorically the Church born from the opened heart of Jesus on Calvary (both the Cross and the Paradise where grounds where Adam and Jesus were in a way sleeping). Before that Adam had named the animals, while Jesus before that had quoted a psalm naming his mockers and tormentors diverse animals, like lions and dogs and bulls of Bashan.
  • Melchisedech makes his sacrifice by offering up bread and wine (Genesis 14) = allegory of the Eucharist and of Christ as Eucharistic priest “according to the order of Melchisedech”.
  • Isaac carries the wood for his burnt offering (he is himself still designed as the sacrifice) (Genesis 22) = allegorically Christ carrying his cross to the same place, to Calvary (Mount Moria mentioned in Genesis comprises both the Jewish Temple and Calvary).

In other words, the allegories are not written by men in the text, they are written by God in the events of which Genesis is a history, not an allegory.

* I am not sure I was not overdoing, but the fact remains is that history is a far more prevalent genre than allegory.

Noah lived about 1000 years old (according to the Quran and the Bible). Do we have any archeological proof that early patriarchs lived long lives?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Studied religions as curious parallels and contrasts to Xtian faith since 9, 10?
Answered just now
How long a life Noah lived is a historic question.

How do you propose to settle this kind of historic question with archaeology?

Historical questions are mostly settled by narrative. I am not sure you could any more prove the Battle of Waterloo occurred archaeologically, at least at that large scale, and I am sure archaeological digs at Waterloo cannot prove who won the battle. Even if each corpse could be identified as having worn a French or an English or a Prussian uniform, first, this is at least three diverse national uniforms (corresponding to the troops we know from history but not archaeology at Waterloo to have been commanded by Napoleon, Wellington and Blücher - there is historic divergence on whether B or W was most operative in beating N), and archaeology, as opposed to history could not tell us who was allied to whom. THEN again, archaeology could not even tell us what side won.

The rule is not like whichever side has most men killed loses. It is rather like whichever side has most men surviving wins. And while archaeology could tell us which side lost most men (if uniforms had been very well preserved, which by now is unlikely for most), this would not automatically tell us which side had most men left. Plus even that is not totally a mathematical issue, it is normally in many battles an estimate on what risks are worth taking and also has to do with what shape the troops are in.

Archaeology could also not tell us a bit on which importance the battle of Waterloo had in the general scheme of things, that it cemented the victory of the powers of Reaction.

So, how exactly would you use archaeology as a test for life spans in the past?

I know some English or perhaps rather Scottish doctors have made conclusions about Medieval lifespans from archaeology. 60 corpses of Anglo-Saxon serfs (thus, between Roman legions leaving 410 and Arthur’s successors being beaten, and Anglo-Saxons themselves being beaten by William in 1066) have been medically investigated and conclusion have been none of them lived to 50.

But what was this conclusion based on?

Most likely, they looked at the tear and wear on the skeletons, where muscles had been attached. They calculated age from the tear and wear. This means that if they misestimated either what tear and wear a serf in agriculture was subjected to (and since farm hands were in overwhelming majority, each had so much less of the total food mass to cultivate, so they could easily have lived lazier lives than now) or what shape the bodies were originally in (they could have been a race in which tear and wear had less impact than on modern men - very theoretically and unlikely in this case), they would have miscalculated the ages.

Now, how would this impact on archaeological evidence for patriarchs?

Obviously, if you lived to near 1000, like Noah and most people back to Adam, you WERE very certainly of a sturdier race than the one we have now. This means tear and wear would have less impact, and this in turn that any medical examination of their skeleta, if identified, would be misleading and give far younger lifespans than they had.

Next, they are probably not there any more.

If the just of the Old Testament were resurrecting and ascending to Heaven during Christ’s death and resurrection, this means their corpses are no longer there. You won’t find the corpse of either King David or of Jonah, either Abraham or Noah in their graves.

When ISIS bashed the tomb of Jonah in Mossul, they inadvertently gave the Church (most directly Oriental Christians, Chaldeans or Nestorians, I think Chaldeans) a chance to test this on Jonah’s case.

For just post-Flood patriarchs, like Shem, Cham and Japheth, the lifespans were still very high (about 600 years) and it is possible the corpse of Cham would still be around.

THEN is the next question where to find them.

Have you verified that the tomb of Julius Caesar or of Alexander the Great or of Pericles or of the poet Aeschylus is still there to be identified? What is the archaeological proof that Attila and Genghis Khan lived?

You will probably NOT find most people who lived or even who are historically known. And in many cases, if you do find a historically known person in the grave, you won’t know it is he.

Even so, some have tried. A dentist Jack Cuozzo went to Paris to investigate Neanderthal skulls and concluded they were of a much more long lived race than we. Their wisdom teeth would have come out at a very late age, their puberty would have been so much slower than ours, they needed to be longlived, plus some of the thicker bone ridges on their skulls are evidence of very high age.

That is perhaps as good as you can get.

Between Flood and Babel life spans were still fairly long. According to LXX and in terms of year after flood, here is a lifespan corresponding to Babel : Peleg 529 - 868. 341 years. Near triple and at least two and a half times the present life spans.

If my own theory of correspondences between carbon dates and Biblical dates is correct, the time between Flood and Babel is the time between carbon dated 40 000 BP and the times of Göbekli Tepe.

This means the relevant material would be human skeleta from Upper Palaeolithic. Meaning of course that estimates of these having died at around 30 would be fairly bogus - or exceptional.

But that would be a question of how much of the medical evaluations of skeleta are subject to caution, as with the Anglo-Saxon skeleta.

So, my main answer is : archaeology is not the best place to start looking. You may find something, but don’t take it as definitive or as decisive. History is the right place and Genesis is history.

next day:

EDIT next day:

For instance, I think that the grave at Sunghir would fit well for early post-Flood patriarchs in carbon timing, between Flood and Babel.

I think it would be the grave of perhaps Magog and his family.

The Russian Sunghir burials and skull reconstructions
Posted on September 23, 2008 : Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog.

I also therefore think that an estimate of his having lived 60 years before dying is about 200 or 300 years too low. At 260 or 360 or sth (or perhaps some little more as yet, he was an earlier generation than Peleg) Magog would have been in the shape of a man of 60.

On the other hand, if he is Magog he can’t have lived too long either, since carbon dating 25 000 BP means he died well before Tower of Babel with its city started getting built in “carbon dated 9600 BC” at Göbekli Tepe.

And the latest estimate - counting from Flood forward - for when this was would be 534 after the Flood, when Peleg was 5, if he was born 529 after Flood (a pure LXX reading, including the “II Cainan”, as per George Syncellus and Byzantine liturgy). If this is carbon dated as 11 600 BP, a carbon date like 25 000 BP must be before 500 after Flood, I presume, and since Magog was a grandson or greatgrandson of Noah, this gives his birth as not too early after Flood either.

Earlier Update
an hour after previous Q originally posted, or so.

Do Christians really still believe in Noah's Ark, Santa Claus, and Jonah living inside the whale?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Thomist after starting with CSLewis
Answered just now
I believe in Saint Nicholas of Myra who slapped Arius at Council of Nicea and threw in money through a window so three girls would not need to prostitute themselves.

I believe in Noah’s living on the Ark with seven other men.

I belive Jonah either lived or perhaps even more probably died and resurrected in the belly of the whale (not identified as such in the book, but I think in the New Testament).

Thursday, June 22, 2017

... in Reply to Joe's Reply to Lizzie

... on Misrepresenting Origins of Catholic Church · ... in Reply to Lizzie · ... in Reply to Joe's Reply to Lizzie

Reply to LizziesAnswers: 10 Lies Protestants Believe About Catholicism! (From a Protestant)
Joe Angelo

You know, while I first intended to see this, I thought the last parenthesis in the title of this video meant you are a Protestant too, not that you quoted her title in full.

I was even preparing to defend the Rosary against your attacks.

12:36 Suppose you believe 1962 - 1965 in the Vatican saw a genuine Church Council.

I think it was a robber council.

12:43 You might want to check this [unbelievers should not be forced to embrace the faith, i e under any circumstances] out with St Thomas Aquinas.

Question 10. Unbelief in general
Summa Theologiae > Second Part of the Second Part

[More than one article apt on question. Actually 7 to 12, all articles, more or less.]

14:27 I was just trying to investigate whether Fides et Ratio was heretical (against YEC, against Geocentrism, or against Five Ways of Proving God, for instance), but found it a bit long on a quick look.

What paragraph can you recommend on the Galileo issue, if any?

There is one Laudato Si which I refer, it is of course by the Saint from Assisi.

Would you agree there are points of agreement between it (or between song of the Three Young Men in the Furnace, which you know from the hours) and animism / shintoism, except there is a ONE God above the nature spirits?

16:09 Thank you very much for touching on the relationship between infallibility and Biblical inerrancy.

If God can do the one, He can do the other.

Hey Prots, if God can make St Luke's human investigation providentially free from all error, He can also make Pope St Leo's comment on among others it free from all doctrinal error!

Hey Modernists, if God can make Pope Pius IX's Ineffabilis Deus free from all doctrinal error, He can also make Moses' research about Patriarchs back to Adam (stitching patriarchal text onto patriarchal text) free from all factual error!

17:20 sth "finally dogmatised at Trent"

Trent certainly finally included I and II Maccabees. But are you sure it as certainly finally excluded III and IV Maccabees?

Trent certainly finally included Baruch (calling it appendix to Jeremiah, since one could view the books defined as canonic either 72 "or 73 if Baruch counts separate from Jeremiah"). But are you sure it as certainly finally excluded Henoch (the book held as canonic by Ethiopians)?

22:43 The Catechism of Pope Pius X has the stamp of approval by an undoubted Pope and undoubted Saint.

22:48 I would not call CCC a sure norm for teaching the faith, therefore also not Wojtyla a Pope.

He was arguably validly ordained a priest, perhaps even validly consecrated bishop (not sure of the when), but he was arguably not eligible to papacy, since heretical. See decisions like Assisi and Assisi II.

24:48 Chemical means of contraception, now as then, are also abortive : if an ovulum is fertilised, it is prevented from nesting.

25:21 Lambeth Conference 1920 - as anti-Contraception as ever.

Lambeth Conference of 1930 - suddenly pro-Contraception.

Otherwise they would have had to condemn certain innovations in states of US and Canada (perhaps England too), which Pope Pius XI duly condemned in Casti Connubii.

Orthodox Modernists (who like to trace the common Christian view to St Augustine's Manichaean past!) were episcopates following suit about 40 years later.

25:35 Unlike Humanae Vitae, Casti Connubii is actually by a Pope:

Pius XI Encyclicals

I love it.

... in Reply to Lizzie

... on Misrepresenting Origins of Catholic Church · ... in Reply to Lizzie · ... in Reply to Joe's Reply to Lizzie

This series of comments might seem a bit disconnected if not compared to the video I am answering to, as often is the case with the video comment videos. Watch it along with my comment./HGL

10 Lies Protestants Believe About Catholicism! (From a Protestant)

From one convert about another.

Have you checked out Stephan Borgehammar? His father was a Lutheran clergyman. He is now a Catholic, but I think he wrote this book while still a Lutheran:

How the Holy Cross was found : from event to medieval legend : with an appendix of texts
Responsibility : Stephen Borgehammar.

5:05 What was Martin Luther's motive?

Well, II Maccabees endorses sacrifice for the dead, and Martin Luther was attacking Masses said for the dead.

6:55 When it comes to relics = bones, check out 4th Book Of Kings (2 Kings) : chapter 13.

9:31 Actually, council of Nicaea was not yet establishing what books were Scripture.

You find local councils doing that a bit later, and disagreeing (Laodicaea council has no Maccabees - but also no Apocalypse!). Canon of Trent agrees (or is meant to agree, some dispute the success) with the canons of councils of Rome and Carthage.

11:29 Actually, Jesus did give the basic training on certain things to do and on hiererarchy, He did make choices like "72, 12, Peter". Only hierarchic choice not explicitly attributed to Jesus was the deacons, Acts, seven deacons in Jerusalem.

BUT a lot of the things we see the Apostles doing must have been directly mentioned by Jesus, or they would not have dared to come up with it. That is what Haydock comment says about Extreme Unction mentioned in James.

Or said, I think the comment has changed, or I misrecalled where it was:

ST. JAMES - Chapter 5
Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

Epistle Of Saint James : Chapter 5
Douay-Rheims Bible + Challoner Notes

12:47 What is awful about the Crusades?

I don't mean this that or other war crime under crusades, but crusades as such : was it awful to deliver Mossul from ISIS? It cost some killing.

12:55 Thirty Years War was a war in which Protestants were one belligerent party. Including Gustavus Adolphus, king or better usurper of Sweden, who was executing two converts to Catholicism as traitors. Georg Bäär or Georgius Ursinus, and the mayor of Södertelge, Zacharias Anthelius.

Unlike some, Lutherans and Anglicans never made pacifism a test of their religion, and of those who did, some had just a generation earlier been violent and revolutionary. Hussites like Ziska were basically the back then version of Commies, at least comparable to Bela Kun and Rosa Luxemburg.

14:42 "together with us they adore the one merciful God"

Well, not all Catholics agree with that, some, including me, consider these words as an act of apostasy.

If it had been like

// like we, they believe there is one God //

that would have been OK, as Muslims have a philosophically correct concept of God.

But saying they are together with us adoring God would mean they are adressing their prayers to the right God. A generally correct philosophical description of God is not sufficient for a right identifification of Him.

Check out this catechism:


From the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore(1891 Version)

15:27 And there are some of us Catholics who believe the world is six or seven thousand years old, and who are geocentrics.

No, all creationists and even global manmade warming deniers are not Protestants, I am among the Catholic ones.

15:40 What exact statement are you speaking about and which Pope?

Certainly not Pope St Pius X!

16:00 Truth cannot contradict truth, sure.

Can you say even one YEC who would deny that?

A YEC by definition does not think millions of years is true. And a falsehood (like millions of years) can contradict truth (like Genesis).

16:16 First trial of Galileo in 1616 about his book and about Foscarini's letter:

In 1616 Bellarmine became involved in the Copernican controversy, which was brought to a head by the publication of Paolo Antonio Foscarini's book defending the Copernican system from the charge that it clashed with the Scriptures. It was he who administered the controversial admonition to Galileo not to hold or defend the Copernican theory.

Robert Cardinal Bellarmine (1542-1621)
The Galileo Project > Christianity > Robert Cardinal Bellarmine

The thing is, Bellarmine was not judging Galileo's personality, but the science and theology. And St Robert has remained the better scientist to this very day.

16:27 He made a dialogue in which the character Simplicio reflects the cardinal Barberini whom he had talked to as a personal friend before Barberini became Pope. Galileo did not mention the Pope by name, only his (the Pope's) private friends would have known how close he was to Simplicio.

Plus, making fun of the Pope is NOT a matter for lifelong house arrest or abjuration under threat of otherwise being burned as a heretic.

It most certainly WAS about Heliocentrism : Earth turning around Sun and also around itself in a daily motion were the two only things Galileo had to abjure.

The dialogue was put on the index because it argued for Heliocentrism.

Arguing otherwise, saying Galileo was punished for "an attitude problem" is as Satanic as boot camps, if you accept this.

16:33 In 1633 Galileo was not told to show Pope Urban VIII more respect, he was told to abjure what he had considered two major scientific discoveries or two aspects of one such.

"Disrespectful to the Pope" means very little in the Catholic Church. Dante and Walter von der Vogelweide had been disrespectful to Popes. Sts Bridget and Catherine of Siena had on behalf of God been disrespectful to Popes.

And Galileo had not even given clues except to very close friends of Pope Urban that Simplicio was reflecting his own acuaintance with the thitherto cardinal Barberini.

Pope Urban even was absent from the trial so his personal feelings should not interfere with the outcome.

What you are saying about the affair, and the Catholics you heard it from, is very disrespectful to his objectivity as a pastor.

16:49 "Have always interpreted Genesis 1 as an allegory"

Probably true, but more like true of Genesis 2, where creation of Eve when Adam slept is an allegory for Good Friday, Church born of the opened side of the Last Adam.

BUT "have never interpreted Genesis 1 and 2 as literally true" [not actual quote, but rendering what is often understood under the other]?

False. Check out the Church Fathers (canonised saints, not Origen or Philo Judaeus!) like St Basil, St Augustine, St John Chrysostom. They all take Genesis account as literally true, and so do the Scholastics of the Middle Ages.

You see, interpreting x as allegory does not mean interpreting x as not literally true in the first place. It is not synonymous to interpreting it as "an allegory" a literary genre only meant to give other truths through a false story. Check out Quadriga Cassiani.

Check out this reference:

[I was looking for another one, the Quadriga Cassiani which used to be an article on wikipedia]

Medieval Exegesis: The Four Senses of Scripture
on Wikipedia

It actually miscites:

the four-fold method of scriptural interpretation, i.e., allegory, typology, tropology, and anagogy.

Four senses are actually : Literal, Allegoric, Moral and Anagogic.

Not sure if Lubac got that, but you can (so far) look it up in Summa Theologica:

Article 10. Whether in Holy Scripture a word may have several senses?
Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 1

16:39 I agree our education system is very biassed.

Anti-Catholic. Anti-Monarchist. Anti-Middle Ages. Anti-Geocentric. Anti-Young Earth Creationist. Anti-Moral. Anti-Theist. Antichristian.

17:45 There was an indulgenced alms scandal in Germany involving Dominicans not handing all alms over to building of St Peters, but part of them to a debt they had to the Fuggers.

A bit as if the gifts had been just any kind of income.

Council of Trent looked into the office of alms collectors.

19:47 "not physically but metaphysically"

Better not visibly, but in actual fact. Apart from that, congratulations, you have got apostolic succession, absolution from sins, transsubstantiation fairly right.

20:45 God has NOT given us a way to reinterpret the Bible through the years to fit the culture!

Papal infallibility was defined by the Vatican Council of 1869, interrupted in 1870. This use of it was specifically excluded.


Session 4 : 18 July 1870
First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ

Chapter 4.
On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren[60].

New issues that come up, that is another matter.

Yes, if an issue seems new, it may happen it really is and the pope has to come up with a new decision, but even so, it must be only a new aspect of an old decision.

Usually, the issues aren't even new, the Pope just comes up with finding what already has been decided.

24:06 Being anti-authority is not just any Protestant - it is Congregationalist.

Luther, Cranmer, Calvin all lowered authority and all changed structure but at the end of the day still had a fairly hierarchic and structured one.

Sometimes so much more oppressive than Catholicism could ever be (up to then, not counting modern deviations).

24:16 Why not check out what Jesus did about hierarchy Himself?

He made disciples. He chose 72 among the rest. He chose 12 among the 72. He chose Peter among the 12.

The 72 got privileges the others didn't have (and there were no women in the 72), the 12 privileges the rest of the 72 didn't have and Peter some the rest of the 12 didn't have (at least on Catholic understanding, some Orthodox would say "until later than he").

25:22 if it is in a good Catechism, one should not disagree with it.

Diverse points have diverse weight in the catechism. But if behind the catechism there is an infallible teaching (papal bull, decree of a council), you are bound to it.

26:09 Orthodox tend to have gone along very well with the points you mentioned from St Augustine.

Where they traditionally do disagree with him is on:

  • the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and from the Son (there are other Church Fathers, including St Athanasius, THE great hero of the Arian crisis for this);
  • the "Roma locuta est, causa finita est".

You seem to have come across some modernist Orthodox.

26:10 Why are you going to be on birth control?

If you don't want children, why marry?

If you marry, why avoid children?

27:08 Was Heaven closed to man or wasn't it, until Christ redeemed us?

St Thomas Aquinas and an Evangelical Swedish song both say Christ has opened the pearly gate. Are you saying it was never even closed because of Adam's sin? Are you saying Lazarus was so many million miles from the Rich Man he wasn't even down in the Netherworld?

28:09 Check out how St Clement of Rome (one of the early Popes) deals with Corinth.

A bit as if he had authority over it, right?

Tuesday, June 20, 2017

... on Misrepresenting Origins of Catholic Church

... on Misrepresenting Origins of Catholic Church · ... in Reply to Lizzie · ... in Reply to Joe's Reply to Lizzie

The Origin Of Roman Catholic Religion - with Peter Michael Martinez
Peter Martinez

4:17 "streamed into the NEW Christian Church"?

  • 1) The Edict of Milan was not founding any Church, just recognising as legal and as in certain ways privileged one already in existence;

  • 2) What do you consider then and there happened to the 280 years OLD one?

4:25 "And the NEW Polytheistic Christianity" ... There you go again!

  • 1) You have not pointed to any point which reasonably could have been then and there a founding act for a new counterfeit Christian Church, the edict if Milan was not one;

  • 2) You are still not explaining what happened to the original Christian Church.

4:46 "The wholesale conversion of the Roman people without any understanding of the original doctrine of the Apostles"

  • 1) The edict of Milan, unlike that of Theodosius, decades later, obliged no Pagans to desist even from public Paganism and was therefore not forcing people with a taste for public religion to become Christians;

  • 2) If the Christians in Rome and Empire in 312 had an understanding of the original Christian doctrine, why would the Church lose it in 313?

  • 3) And since Christian clergy had privileges, they could impose on the ones wanting to convert to study the faith for some time before getting to baptism : it was called being a Catechumen. In other words, your whole scenario breaks down as impossible.

4:54 "many pagan and polytheistic beliefs were incorporated into the New State Church"

  • 1) Except that the Edict of Milan didn't make Christianity a State Church.

  • 2) Except that the original Church, which would normally still have been extant and which would normally have been the first beneficiaries of the Edict (at least before Constantine supposedly meddled with it at Nicaea) were still around to prevent such paganism flowing in.

5:11 "Converted in mass to the all inclusive new religion"

Sorry, but the Catholic Church just after 313 was anything BUT "all inclusive"!

It is not exactly like the Vatican II Council "Catholicism", you know!

5:41 "it was decided to incorporate as many of the customs and beliefs"

When and where?

What decision?

What historical fact can you point to?

You are telling a just so story, not very different from the one given by Dan Brown, through his character Teabing!

5:51 "they thought they would increase the number of Pagan converts"

Again, when and where?

If you look at Pope St Gregory the Great, he is a fan of including customs from Pagans, as long as the remains of these customs include nothing in conflict with the Christian belief.

BUT Pope St Gregory I is Pope 590 to 604.

You are supposedly still talking about just after the Edict of Milan. 313. Nearly 300 years before Pope St Gregory I.

6:03 J. L. von Monsheim, Ecclesiastical History, vol. I.

Thank you for citing your authority, at least.

I can google it, and it gives exactly five hits on some korean page.

In other words, the book probably does not exist. You are probably a fraud.

And you are also not even giving page numbers, fair enough, since the page numbers cannot exist without the book.

What however does exist is a 4 vol. Institutionum historiae ecclesiasticae libri IV, 1726, by one Johann Lorenz von Mosheim. Mosheim, not Monsheim.

As he was a Lutheran, his view of the Catholic Church can be suspected of being somewhat biassed. Especially back then in 1726.

6:41 "had found a way ... without confronting false religions"

Why was the Catholic Church then so very busy doing that, precisely confronting false religions?

Oh, it is perhaps not in von Monsheim, but it is in more real Ecclesiastical histories.

Take the Annals of Quedlinburg monastery. They tell of a monk and priest who went to Lithuania and who was nearly sacrificed to Lithuanian gods, only a horse gave a nudge interpreted as gods being against the sacrifice, and he survived and could tell of it.

Or take the men who came to Birka, Sts Ansgar and Rimbert and bishop Gauzbert - confronting Odinism near its headquarters in Sweden (Birka to Elder Uppsala is a fairly short distance, c. 92 km - using the municipalities they are part of, Ekerö and Uppsala).

If their Catholicism was so all inclusive as you claim, why take the trouble?

Speaking of Pope St Gregory, again : if his Catholicism was so all inclusive, why did he bother to tell bishops in Gaul (now France) they should NOT read in the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid, poems containing pagan names of false gods?

This last in R. R. Bolgar, The Classical Heritage and Its Beneficiaries.

7:21 Identifying Jesus with the sun god ... "Et orietur vobis timentibus nomen meum sol justitiae, et sanitas in pennis ejus: et egrediemini, et salietis sicut vituli de armento." [Malachias (Malachi) 4:2]

Catholics hardly did so more than Malachy did! You do consider Malachy a real prophet of the Old Testament, do you?

7:31 Imagery repackaged from sunworshippers?

Possible - but for another purpose.

IDOLS repackaged from sunworshippers?

You'd have to document that!

7:45 "Rather than convert the people to the Gospel, the new Church in Rome decided to convert their traditions and customs and simply call them Christian."

Funny, then, that you don't find solar looking monstrances until centuries after sun worship was gone.

Funny also, then, that you STILL have:

  • 1) not answered by what act of apostasy or new foundation the "New" Christian Church arose;

  • 2) NOR explained what happened to the old Christian Church, the one which Roman Pagans had persecuted along with Jews for 280 years.

8:28 OK, you are speaking of Constantine in 321 introducing Sunday rest.

Can you show that Sunworshippers before that had been resting on Sundays?

8:42 Tim Dowley, noted.

9:09 Sorry, but Christmas celebrated on december 25 is actually older than Constantine and arguably it could at least be older than Aurelian instituting Sol Invictus on Dec. 25 a few decades earlier than Constantine.

9:34 If one had only had one Church in Rome / Roman Empire ceasing to be purely Christian and becoming a new Church, this could have been possible. Actually it did happen too, they were called Arians, one of the times.

BUT you are not just saying this happened, you are also saying it happened after the Church had already become a new Church purely through the Edict of Milan, and also you are at least not giving any evidence of showing there was another Church surviving and resisting apostasy beside this. If Christianity had merely been human or demonic, no problem. But since Christianity is from God, you are contradicting Matthew 28.

Unless you claim sth other than the RC Church continued to be the Christian Church that Christ had founded.

Sunday, June 18, 2017

... on Misidentification of Tower of Babel

Some Very Compelling Evidence the Tower of Babel Was Real
Smithsonian Channel

3:35 Seriously? Tower of Babel from c. 600 BC = Biblical account?


In 600 BC all the world was no longer just one people and of one tongue. While Nebuchadnezzar II could have been inspired by Nimrod (at one time he tried to get divine honours for himself and commit Daniel to death penalty for refusing that), he is way too late for being the real Nimrod behind the real Tower of Babel.

Far from confirming the Genesis story, this would instead demote it from fact to a fiction set in prehistory which lampoons contemporary fact - all the while also setting composition of Genesis at way too late. A Christian cannot accept this.

The Sticky Clue That Links the Tower of Babel to the Bible
Smithsonian Channel

It seems here that people are saying Genesis is a product of the Babylonian captivity.

No. It is very much not. Friedrich Delitzsch was wrong in 1902 and he is still wrong.

"They utilised the tower of Babylon as inspiration for the Tower of Babel story in the Bible."

This means, far from being real old history preserved to Ezra et al. from way before Babylonian captivity, Genesis is a piece of "history fiction" written millennia after the events and in which he (or someone like him in his day) placed parodies of contemporary events and things.

I find it way more likely that Nebuchadnezzar II was inspired from traditions back to Nimrod in his country - or even in an early look at Judaism (well before Daniel converted him!) was inspired by real old history in the Genesis story - but inspired in the wrong way. Emulating the bad guys.

2:22 I have argued that baked bricks and bitumen were there in Göbekli Tepe but were later removed.

The tower of Nebuchadnezzar could be where it was removed to. He could have tried to get luck from his predecessor in Shinar plains (and Neo-Babylonian Empire included Göbekli Tepe / Edessa, or so it looks from the map) and tried to do so by reusing all of the bricks he could find in GT. Which was then covered with sand as to non-brick stone foundations.

Of course, stamps from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II could have been somewhat difficult to add two thousand years after they were originally made, so these stamps could refute this theory.

3:14 The Bible doesn't specifically say the Tower of Babel was never finished. It was the city that was ceased from being built.

I have argued that the Tower of Babel has lately been finished in Cape Canaveral and in Bajkonur, etc. The project was a rocket and good for us, we are using O2 and H2 for rocket fuel.

Nimrod would probably have known explosive qualities of Uranium from pre-Flood wars as reflected in Mahabharata and he would have tried that. Disastrously, especially with all men together around it.

Friday, June 16, 2017

... Pyramids, Flood, Babel, LXX, Dead Sea Scrolls

Were the Pyramids Built Before the Flood?

Leningrad codex ... now, I am a fairly firm believer in LXX chronology - and in Vulgate except for chronology.

That is, I am not a believer in Leningrad codex. Btw, the part about chronology was wrong already where the Hebrew original for St Jerome's Vulgate was concerned. I have one idea of why this happened : Jews have a way of wanting to make Melchisedec = Shem. That way, Melchisedec would not have been a goy. The LXX chronology makes this impossible, but with Vulgate and Masoretic, it is possible.

[As we shall see, Nathan Hoffman thinks the same, see below]

11:22 Shall we take a non-Ussher, non-Masoretic timeline Ussher style?

You have St Jerome's whose chronology the Catholic Church, at least Latin Rite, uses every Christmas.

Christ born 5199 after Creation, 2957 after Flood, 2015 after Birth of Abraham.

Obviously, it is inspired by LXX, only LXX for Creation to Flood being 2242 years, LXX and Samaritan agreeing with Josephus on longer timespans between post-Flood patriarchs, and St Jerome's timeline agrees perhaps a bit better with Samaritan, by omitting Cainan. This omission is not shared by Syncellus, whose chronology + 8 more years is given each Christmas in Byzantine tradition Churches :

Christ born 5508 after Creation, 3366 after Flood ...

12:50 Now, are the step pyramids at Saqqara in any way carbon dated?

I think they are historically attested as Djoser's, he was probably Joseph's pharao.

And this means that they are reshuffleable like this:

2800 BC = carbon date of Djoser's coffin, contemporary to Saqqara pyramids = 1709 BC, when Joseph was in Egypt about surviving Djoser.

Here is an article where I dealt with that:

Creation vs. Evolution : This Morning I Read it's 77 and 68 Years of Radiocarbon

[short link : http://ppt.li/3sw]

Djoser and Imhotep lived about a thousand years before Joseph was ever in Egypt. Yes, there are lots of similarities between Joseph and Imhotep. But you don't know for a fact that they are the same person. I know that the Step Pyramid was built as a smaller structure at first. But then later on it was expanded. When they found Imhotep's name in the pyramid, I don't necessarily see that as evidence that Imhotep was there are the original building. It could be that the original building was built a thousand years before Joseph, but then a thousand years later, Joseph expanded it. So they might have dated Imhotep incorrectly.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"Djoser and Imhotep lived about a thousand years before Joseph was ever in Egypt."

Imhotep is historically dated to Djoser.

Djoser is CARBON DATED to about 1000 years before Joseph was in Egypt.

If Imhotep is really Joseph, this means sth for carbon level in the atmosphere back then, just as I mentioned in article.

With Djoser being grossly misdated, this answers the rest of your points.

"But you don't know for a fact that they are the same person."

I think the Hunger Stele is a good clue. Or even a proof. I take it over carbon date of Djoser anytime!

15:41 - Here I must defend conventional creation scientists.

Even very fast growing populations these days have constraints of economy which were not there in the uncrowded days after the Flood. Citing one:

// From the Flood to the Tower of Babel

The date of the Tower of Babel event is unknown. From context, it appears the timing has something to do with a man named Peleg, whose name means ‘division’ (Gen 10:25).16 He was born c. 101 years after the Flood and lived until c. 340 years after the Flood (Gen 11).17

If the division of people occurred only 100 years after the Flood, there would not be many people in the world. However, the data behind the growth rates calculated in figure 4 indicate that under some scenarios it is possible to obtain a population size greater than 1,000 individuals in that much time. This occurred at all settings of minimum CBA with a minimum child spacing of 1 year, or with small minimum CBA and a minimum child spacing of 2 or 3 years. It is also possible to arrive at over 10,000 individuals with a minimum child spacing of 1 year and a minimum CBA <= 17, and up to 40,000 individuals with a minimum CBA of 14, although these are not likely scenarios.

After 340 years, it is trivial to have 1,000 individuals in the population and most parameter settings produce population sizes many orders of magnitude greater than that. How many people were in existence when the population was divided? Sadly, one cannot determine the number from numerical analyses like these. //

Modelling biblical human population growth
by Robert Carter and Chris Hardy

We also do not know how many were needed for the building. A "tower of which the top reaches into heaven" is constructed rather often at NASA or their furnishers. It is called a three step rocket. On Cape Canaveral it looks like a tower before takeoff, and after takeoff only the top reaches physically into heaven, the real heaven well above atmosphere.

So, even 1000 could have been enough, with someone searching for the rocket fuel (I think Nimrod had chosen Uranium for the task and God sent Ice Age to prevent his men from reaching Uranium mines in Canada) somewhere else.

However, I agree with you that LXX chronology is likelier, since at beginning of ice age we don't find anything looking like a rocket ramp, at end of it, Younger Dryas, yes, we do : Göbekli Tepe. I give Peleg a rather later birth, so that Palaeolithic from first Magdalenian cave painting can fit in between Flood and T of B = G T.

There's no possible way the Tower of Babel was only 100 years after the flood. Just to get 30,000 people you'd need a growth rate that is absurd beyond all reason. And surely the Tower of Babel had to be bigger than the Great Pyramid. Otherwise, if the Great Pyramid was bigger than the Tower, then why would God go through the trouble of thwarting the plans of the Tower of Babel, but then allow for the building of an even bigger structure? Why would God allow the bigger one, but not allow the smaller one?That makes no sense! The Tower of Babel was supposed to reach into the heavens. The pyramid is tall, but it's not really all that tall. Even the Eiffel tower is taller. I think the atheists have a really good point on this one. They're absolutely right that you'd need an absurdly high growth rate. It couldn't have happened in only 100 years. And there's no doubt that it occurred at the birth of Peleg. Even Josephus figured that one out.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
"There's no possible way the Tower of Babel was only 100 years after the flood."

We'll see.

"Just to get 30,000 people you'd need a growth rate that is absurd beyond all reason."

I probably agree, if only because grandchildren of Noah needed time to be born and grown into puberty.

"And surely the Tower of Babel had to be bigger than the Great Pyramid."

No. Genesis never mentions size.

"Otherwise, if the Great Pyramid was bigger than the Tower, then why would God go through the trouble of thwarting the plans of the Tower of Babel, but then allow for the building of an even bigger structure? Why would God allow the bigger one, but not allow the smaller one?That makes no sense!"

I have even heard like this : why would God thwart Babel but not rockets? It only makes sense of Tower of Babel was itself a rocket, God intended for rockets to succeed, but with a delay.

A salutary delay which allowed for a change of fuel from Uranium to H2 + O2. A much better rocket fuel, than the one I suspect Nimrod was going for!

"The Tower of Babel was supposed to reach into the heavens."

No, only its top was. In a three step rocket only the top reaches into Heaven.

"The pyramid is tall, but it's not really all that tall. Even the Eiffel tower is taller. I think the atheists have a really good point on this one."

Except that tall is not the point. The tops of pyramids, Eiffel tower, up to lately Twin Tower remain at same distance from ground. They are not moving into the heavens, like a three step rocket is.

Which is why I think T o B was meant to be sth like that.

"They're absolutely right that you'd need an absurdly high growth rate. It couldn't have happened in only 100 years."

No, they are not if ToB was a rocket which needed far fewer people than a pyramid, and I don't think even the pyramid needed 30 000 people working full time, I think that is a roll of how many were involved one time or other in the work. If it is at all a figure from back then documentation.

"And there's no doubt that it occurred at the birth of Peleg. Even Josephus figured that one out."

The Bible only says "And to Heber were born two sons: the name of the one was Phaleg, because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name Jectan."

In his days - not necessarily at his birth. And it also does not say whether the division was at the dispersion or an earlier event. Noah or someone dividing up earth juridically, before Babel project braved that. This would mean Peleg could have been born while the earth was being portioned out like Alexander VI did between Spain and Portugal for non-Christian countries.

AND both beginning and end of Babel story happening after Peleg was already named.

15:46 "to build a city with an enormous tower"?

First, city, even in 100 years, one could have had about 1000 people around. Fastest growing populations now are no indicator for back then, since these have economic constraints stopping some early marriages from getting along.

Second, the Bible nowhere says the tower was tall. In length of object. It says its top was meant to reach into heaven, and the tops of three step rockets do that, but we don't find these even with all three steps are extremely tall.

Of course the population grew faster back then. Their death rate wasn't as fast since they lived longer. But the growth rate you're suggesting that women be pregnant for only about 3 weeks. Sorry, but that's not realistic.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I said "even in 100 years, one could have had about 1000 people around"

You interpret this as "the growth rate you're suggesting that women be pregnant for only about 3 weeks."


Have you accounted for LARGER families, making Duggars seem a cosy little family?

I'd like to see your calculations for "100 years = 8 - 1000 = 3 weeks pregnancies"!

17:09 Obviously, the population growth was actually slowing down as economic possibilities narrowed.

As said, 8.58 % a year is probably not needed, since I think 1000 people would have been enough for T of B project to start, but if there was such a growth, it would have slowed down after a bit, since after some growth some guys find it is not so ultra easy any more to marry and look for a new piece of land to farm or - just after Flood and well to nearly up to Babel, if Göbekli Tepe - hunt and gather on.

17:29 You cite 30,000 people involved in Cheops pyramid.

Are you sure so many people were actually needed full time, or can they have taken turns, so that 30,000 people were in fact involved at one time or other, but most of them NOT from beginning to end?

18:34 a fullfledged LXX chronology involves Christ being born in 5500 BC, it would seem from Byzantine liturgic or George Syncellus' chronology (5508 / 5500). St Jerome's chronology involves Christ being born 5199 after Creation.

18:40 So I say we are probably in year 7216 after Creation, perhaps even in year 7525.

no, the Greek is not right about everything. The Greek is wrong about the extra Cainan, and it's also wrong about the 5 generations from Adam down to Mahallalel.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
In extra Cainan, you have Byzantine Liturgy with Syncellus against you.

With Adam being 230 years at birth of Seth, and you denying this, you have against you even Roman Latin Liturgy and St Jerome, as well as above.

I cannot say you have nothing for you, since Vulgate supports your view on that.

19:32 "II Cainan" - for time between Flood and Abraham, the difference between Syncellus (LXX only) and St Jerome is about as if St Jerome omitted the years between Cainan's birth and his begetting Salah.

On the other hand, it could be a cultural thing to omit him from a Hebrew style genealogy, I think I read somewhere he was a bad sinner and was therefore omitted. In that case, I cannot just go for St Jerome and just diss Syncellus and Byzantine liturgic tradition.

20:21 There were Levites in each tribe and they intermarried with each tribe, including Judah.

The Jews come from the tribes Judah and Benjamin so today a Cohen or a Levi comes from Levites intermarried with tribes of Judah and Benjamin. A Samaritan levite or cohen would come from Levites intermarried with Ephraim and some other ingredients of Samaritan population.

AND the Blessed Virgin was about first cousin or sth to Elisabeth, the wife of the cohen Zachariah who was father to the prophet St John the Baptist.

That said, Christ is even so neither an Aaronite priest nor quite qualified to be so, neither was, as you are going to say, Melchisedec, fairly obviously a Jebusite, descended very probably from Canaan.

And yes, Masoretic and also Hebrew original for Vulgate allow Melchisedec = Shem, while LXX and Samaritan both exclude this.

23:33 Good detective work, sir!

24:45 Both a good detective work on why Jewish identification is wrong, and on why St Paul might be warning Titus!

And excellent detective work up to 28:16, I took a snap shot of that still for my blog!

30:07 The one place where I can't credit you with excellent detective work is accepting Saqqara pyramids as centuries before 2000 BC.

Abraham lived around that time, and we should probably group him with Narmer in time. That is, Narmer, carbon dated raw date to 3400 BC or so, must have lived more like 2000 BC.

Abraham coincides with sth else which requires carbon date 3400 BC, namely chalcolithic of En-Geddi. I failed to properly credit Dr A.J.M. Osgood for his detective work, but it was because I trusted him so much I didn't read all of the article carefully. I didn't even look up whether En-Geddi was mentioned in Genesis 14. Its synonym is:

// As is often the case, the positive clue comes from the most insignificant portion of this passage. In Genesis 14:7 we are told that the kings of Mesapotamia attacked ‘the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon-tamar’. Now 2 Chronicles 20:2 tells us that Hazezon-tamar is En-gedi, the oasis mentioned in Scripture a number of times on the western shore of the Dead Sea. //

The Times of Abraham
By Dr A.J.M. Osgood

Great detective work, Osgood, even if you missed this has an implication for carbon levels - or didn't like the implication it had! In c. 2000 BC, the carbon level was so low that things from back then, if organic then, carbon date to c. 1400 years older than they are, i e to 3400 BC.

A Masoretic reading making Abraham more recent would of course add even more extra years to make same apparent date. This means that Saqqara pyramids are too young to disprove the Masoretic text - but nice try!

(My rise of carbon curve could however be another try against Masoretic text : since the carbon years between 40 000 BC and 9600 BC must fit between Flood and beginning of Babel around birth of Peleg - this is another issue, it was around beginning of Babel, not at its dispersion 40 years later, that Peleg was born, at another division of the Earth - Syncellus does agree with this being made juridically by Noah and Babel project being in rebellion against it, even if in his chronology which I basically agree with, Noah would have been dead already, so it would have to have been someone else).

Hans-Georg Lundahl
For seeing all of my comments in order, see this review of your video:


Thanks! I checked out your blog. I'm glad this information is getting out there, because I think it's important for people to know.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
You are welcome!

Thursday, June 15, 2017

... on PIE

... on Tower of Babel - a Classic (quora) · ... on PIE

Why does reconstructed Proto-Indo-European seem so cumbersome to pronounce?

C on Q
It seems as if there are a lot of unusual phonemes and stranger and more consonant clusters than most modern IE languages have. Also, what do those subscript numbers mean?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
I speak two langs, Latin and Germanic. In a few dialects.
Answered just now
H generally comes with subscript 1,2 or 3.

H1 is the H which becomes (a Continental) E and was probably (an English / German) H.

H2 becomes A and was presumably Ach-Laut.

H3 becomes O and also voices some consonants beside it, was probably a voiced counterpart of Ach-Laut a little further back perhaps and with lip rounding.

Then there are bh, dh, gh, gh(w). Basically taken over from Sanskrit bh, dh, jh, gh.

Now, the unusual part is this : bh, dh, gh, gh(w) exist, which is rare outside India (Sanskrit + some Dravidic languages + some Indic languages later than Sanskrit) AND the three H sounds can form the core of a syllable, which is usually reserved for vowels which are voiced sounds.

Also, m and n, l and r exist in syllabic version, but this you can find, at least for r and l in Czech too : vlk meaning wolf and Brno being a city both have this. This means they are not really consonant clusters, since m, n, l, r in this context are functioning as vowels.

But I have only DEFINED the unusual traits of Proto-Indo-European. This is sth other than to EXPLAIN them as you asked me to do.

Now, PIE is reconstructed and this is how linguists finally agreed to reconstruct it. I just saw a version with only one laryngal (or two, counting voiceless and voiced), which was much closer to Hittite - by another linguist, proposing his reconstruction.

And one possible explanation why the reconstruction of a proto-language seems so odd (laryngals, bh, dh, gh, gh(w), m and n, l and r in syllabic version, all at the same time) may be in my view because the premiss behind the reconstruction, namely existence of a proto-language (like Latin is to the Romance languages) is the wrong explanation for Indo-European communalities. As it happens, that is my view.

pH2tH1r = pronounce pkht-hr … would you call your dad such a sound?